Survey Results

[Steve Butler]

At the league meeting last night the following clubs were represented:

Arnold Civil Defence
Cotgrave Welfare
City Hospital Lesiure Centre
Oakleigh Lodge Social Club
Pegasus Snooker Club
Stadium Leisure
Wollaton RBL

The following clubs were absent:

BCI Snooker Centre
Beeston Snooker Hall
Lenton Liberal Club
Mapperley Community Centre
Nottingham University
Phoenix Cue Sports

I presented the survey results to those present as follows:

Will you vote in favour of changing the format next season to 3 man teams (2 frames each) if we call an EGM?

YES
Arnold x1
BCI x1
Beeston x1
Mapperley x2
Nottm Uni x1
Pegasus x2
Phoenix x2
Stadium x2

NO
Arnold x1
BCI x1
Beeston x1
City Hospital x2
Cotgrave x2
Lenton x2
Nottm Uni x1
Oakleigh x2
Wollaton x2

TOTAL YES = 12
TOTAL NO = 14

As the result was so evenly split we did not bother asking the 6 committee members for their views but it is likely that me, Mike and Pete would vote YES and Dennis, Dave and Don would vote NO, a 15 / 17 split.

As a result of this survey we will not be trying to force the change on anyone who does not want it.

I asked the meeting to consider the following:

I propose that our next league meeting is an EGM at which we vote to accept the following rule change:

"A new set of 3 Man Team rules will be written for the 2010/11 season.  The new set of rules will be drawn up by the League Secretary and may be amended at any time without the need for a meeting, subject to the approval of the Committee."

After a lot of discussion the meeting agreed to this proposal.

The EGM will take place on Thursday 8 April 2010.

If the EGM votes in favour of the rule above, I will draw up the new playing rules which will allow us to have 3 or 4 divisions next season, 1 of which will contain all of the teams who want to continue playing the current format.
The other 2 or 3 divisions will contain those teams who want to play the new format.

An example (note the word example - this is for illiustrative purposes only is in no way supposed to indicate actual teams!) of how the new structure might be is shown below:



Teams will be asked to choose which format they want to play in at the AGM in September and they will be placed into the relevant divisions.

This is of course if the rule above is accepted at the EGM in April.  If it is not then the Committee will have to consider what happens thereafter.

I have personally put a lot of work into this and I now want to see it concluded one way or another.  I feel this offers the best compromise because clubs and teams will have a choice which format they play in next season and nobody will be forced to adopt a format they don't want.

[ellism2]

I am surprised that so many teams are against the idea of playing two frames of snooker per person? Surely we all want to play more and this seems an ideal opportunity - plus with fewer players there is more chance for an upset against some of the better teams - ie playing 6 frames instead of the usual 8?

Is it some sort of coincidence that the vast majority of the teams that are against it are from Div 2 - or am i being cynical? Maybe they are concerned that their matches will take all night......

Im up for the new format - i dont see why people dislike change when its for the good of the game - more frames + more teams + more divisons = a winner!
:bravo:

[Nav Hussain]

I am 100% with Matt, it will only take the game forward with better standard and also more frames for each player (something which alot of players have been crying out for !!!!). If it were Sir Rodney Walker he would say "stay with current format", if it were Barry Hearn "lets take the game forward".

The main objective of any snooker league is to have it more recognised and also to bring better standard of play, now i dont see how the new format will stop this from happening, it can only improve it. I know the time is not an issue for the Div 1 players as you will only get a few chances per frame and then its over (even in a 1 table situation, should not be a problem). Now if the other lower Div teams feel that they dont want the change, then the best solution is that Div 1 go ahead and implement the change and run it for a year. This will then show how successful the format is rather than changing the whole structure for the other Div's.

If i have to vote at the AGM, then let it be !!!!!   

[Mike Langdon]

I think Steve has come up with a brilliant plan to keep everyone happy and if the vote goes against this proposal then i guess sadly the pro vote will have to look at other options.  It's very frustrating that some clubs still seem confused about it all and it doesn't help that only 8 clubs (just 50% of the league) bothered turning up to be represented at the meeting last night where you can gain so much information about league matters.

Mike

[Jamie Moore]

Crikey it baffles me - Im certainly in favour of playing two frames, sometimes Im of the opinion when I have gone away to play one frame and the home team has only played on one table what a waste of a night.
I assume all teams under a new format would be obliged to use two tables?

[crosswell147]

I havent made a comment on this before but one of the reasons I want to change to this league is for the two frames set up. It would increase the standard of play and competition would be better over the two frames as playing just one frame can be very frustrating at times.
I know growing up in the Southampton league everyone used to have a team of 5, who all played two frames each over two tables and this never caused any problems and never ran on too late. It's been my favourite format to play in so far

[Steve Butler]

I assume all teams under a new format would be obliged to use two tables?

From my point of view I think that any format the league adopts should be capable of being played by teams who, for whatever reason, need to play a match on one table.

There are clubs such as Oakleigh Lodge and Wollaton RBL who only have one table (Oakleigh are not allowed to use two because the other is for members to use).

There are also clubs such as Lenton and Cotgrave who have two tables.  If we said they had to use both tables for a match they would always be limited to entering 2 teams and I would like these clubs to enter 3 or 4 teams.

One of the reasons the new format was suggested in the first place was because a large number of players (arguably the better players in division 1) want to play 2 frames each per match.  This is understandable when you consider a player could travel to an away venue, play a couple of shots and find the frame is over after 10 minutes because their oponent has knocked in a 60 break.  This doesn't tend to happen in division 2 matches so perhaps it's not surprising that playing 2 frames is not as important to them.

Another reason the new format would be an improvement though is that it would allow new clubs to enter the league (easier to raise 3/4 players than 6/7) AND it would allow existing clubs to enter additional teams more easily.

This latter point is more important to me as League Secretary because I believe it is my duty to encourage more players and teams to play in the league.  I don't think I would be doing my job correctly if I just sat back and let the league tick over with the current clubs.  If I had done this for the last 3 years, perhaps we wouldn't have had the likes of Nottingham University, Beeston Snooker Hall, Phoenix Cue Sports and The Peoples Hall in the league.  These teams have been superb additions to the league, I think we would all agree on that.

You can see why there's a difference of opinion, generally between the two divisions and we have to accept that the stronger, perhaps more serious players, are likely to have different reasons for playing league snooker than the weaker, perhaps more casual players.

Hence why I have made my latest (and final) proposal which is to have both formats available next season so that teams can choose which one they want to play in.  Maybe when we have done it for a season, if the new format is seen to work well, the sceptics may choose to adopt the new format in 2011/12.

[Daniel]

I am in the baffled camp  :question: :question: :question: :question:

I don't completely understand what it is that's made clubs vote no.  You have to consider playing more than one format for many of the reasons mentioned by Steve.  There were potentially 2 new teams just from Spot On Sneinton alone in the offing.  I know a lot of teams would probably like to travel to what is a great venue.

I don't buy the argument that it is just weaker teams saying no.  I think you will find that it is mainly teams with limited table space (nearly all the double no votes) that are against the change.  I think there has been a misconception that less players would be able to play for them in the 3 man teams format.  In fact the format allows exactly the same number of players to play more frames (which is why matches would start earlier).

Clubs should be aware of course that if there is option to play the new format, were it blocked at the AGM, then less money would be raised.  Also it would be a disaster for NHSL if anybody just formed a breakaway based on the new format (especially as many of the best players want to play 2 frames).  NHSL has to consider running the new format really, if there is a great desire among so many players for that reason.

[Alan Cunningham]

I'm glad that Daniel, and a lot of others, are getting to grips with my original thoughts. YES the '3-man-team' or '6-frame-format'
IS the way forward.  By registering a "minimum for 4 players" and an "unlimited-how-many-players" you would be able to play any combination of 6 frames providing no player plays more than 2 frames. Surely, it would be unnecessary for ANY match to be postoned by registering squads as above. AND it would get rid of the substitutes rule.
You have to appreciate that the Naz House Snooker League has been running for ? years, and, over the past couple of years there has been a lot of changes. But, if we are to go forward, there have to be changes. Everything looks rosey on the above format, BBBBUUUUTTTT, there are lots of things that have to be taken into consideration - and Steve (God help him) has to TRY and make it good for all concerned.
There have been a lot of suggestions behind the scenes (I am not a committee member but I have tried to use my experience of the local snooker scene) for example - how do you continue with the K.O. cup/plate etc, 3 man '6 frame' teams against 6 man '8 frame' teams etc. Steve is in a horrible situation.

[Robert Wright]

Yes i agree that Steve is in a horrible position. He can't do right for doing wrong. That's the burden of league secretaries unfortunately. I was going to try out the 3 man 6 frame option during the summer, but have had a few objections. I can see why as our 4 man 1 frame system works well. As i always say it's the teams in the leagues that make the rules. We just administer them. What makes the NHSL different is the format it uses. Having 2 formats in the same league, albeit in different divisions, is going to be a nightmare to sort out. I'm sure that Steve can do it though. Good luck Steve!!!!!!

[Steve Butler]

Running a league with two formats next season will be easy.  The hard part is getting people to vote things in at the meetings.  People don't seem to be able to see past their own team, unlike a Secretary who finds it easy to see the league as a whole.

If the doubters support the proposal to run with the two formats side by side next season, I'm confident it will go smoothly.  The teams will be presented with a choice of formats and it's up to them which they enter.

As for the different formats being incompatible in cup competitions, that's quite right.  We will need to have two KO Cup and Plate competitions, one for each format.

The competitions next season would be:

6 Frame League (New format)
League divisions (1, 2 or 3)
KO Cup
KO Plate
Divisional Cups

8 Frame League (Traditional format)
League divisions (1 or 2)
KO Cup
KO Plate
Divisional Cups

I'm quite relaxed about it now to be honest.  What will be will be.  I'm not going to try to persuade people to change their mind.  They are entitled to their opinions.  I respect Lenton, Wollaton, Cotgrave, City Hospital and Oakleigh's reasons for not wanting to change from the current format to a new format where they will potentially have to play 6 frames on 1 table.  They feel that they may struggle to get all 6 frames played and even if they do, they feel the match may drag on a bit.  That's fair comment.  I just hope that these teams do not vote NO at the EGM as that will spoil it for the other teams that do want to try the new format.  If they do vote NO, I would consider that to be a selfish act and not in the best interests of the league as a whole.

We'll see what happens at the EGM.......

[Alan Cunningham]

If you are prepared to run 2 separate K.O. Cup & Plate Comps I cant see any problems. The 6 frame system should flow just as easily. Good luck with your persuasive tongue and Best Wishes with the vote.

[Daniel]

Great post Steve. :bravo:

I agree with Mike that your plan is a great compromise.  I hope we can find a way to keep at least one competition which includes every team.  Not sure how it could be done though.  I completely understand if you think it will be too much after this though.

[Robert Wright]

Seems to me that you may as well have two leagues running simultaniously. The NHSL (old format) and the NHSL (3 man). You could even go one further and move the 3 man league to the Wednesday and then you might get some teams playing both formats. A secretaries life is sometimes not a happy one. Or is that a policemans lot is not a happy one?

[Steve Butler]

Quite a few leagues play on more than one night, for various reasons.  The Cardiff league plays on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  I hear the divorce rate is a lot higher in Cardiff too!

:laugh: